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Author Topic: How to better orient the forum towards fan game development  (Read 9490 times)

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Pyrazor

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How to better orient the forum towards fan game ...
« on: December 10, 2008, 03:30:50 am »
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I was taking a look through the forum the other day and was talking with Vash about some of the policy around ZFGC and he felt I should share my observations and ideas with the members.

In any case, the issue I'm looking at here is the for the most part horrendous track record in fan games.  Not one full game has ever been completed or come even close for that matter.  I'm not here to !@#$% about it, I'm here to tell you how to fix it from my point of view.

Vash and I both agree that fan game development is not an uncommon first step towards game development.  However it seems most of the staff has the misconception that fan game development is the first step toward real programming.  The thing to understand is that these are two very different things.

Game development is the process of forming a team of people with varied talents, coming up with a concept, starting it, and most importantly, finishing it

Good programming is the efficient and effective use of code such it does its job well, quickly, and is written in a fashion that most programmers would take little time to familiarize with it.

The fundamental issue here isn't that people aren't using XNA or C++ or don't know how to program, the issue is that users lack the sense to properly form a team.  This isn't their fault though, this burden falls on the forum.

Again, fan game devs are often newbies.  They come in with their own concept that they want to do but generally very few people are interested in helping.  Typically they're lucky to get a tester and a mediocre spriter and work in GM or something.  They also tend to work on multiple projects of this type.  Eventually, with no one but themselves to keep motivated, they lose interest and the project(s) is scrapped.

This is not to say GM is bad.  It is a language for the inexperienced so its logical that inexperienced people use them.  There's nothing wrong with encouraging use of more powerful languages but pinning that as the problem is naive.  This is why all the Fan Game tutorials aren't well used because they all start lesson 1 at programming.

What should be happening is new users should be encouraged to form teams, create a new concept as a team, and then execute on it.  These teams shouldn't be entirely composed of new/inexperienced members but should have a few of ZFGC's senior members so the newer can learn from them. 

In example, programmers could start by getting grips with GM on a simple project.  They could then advance to a more complex project where they establish some programming concepts.  Then say some of those people work on a project with let's say Infini and learn how to apply those concepts in C#.

I suggest to overhaul the Projects section.  Potentially keep the threads, but create sub-forums for approved teams of members.  Approve teams based on the scope of their project, experience, if any members are undertaking other projects and so forth.  Additionally, add a section where members can post a thread stating they are looking for a team in which they document their skills and experience. 

This sets up a system in which members are accountable for each other.  Programmers make sure they're all working as do artists and the other team members.  If not, they can pick someone up from the Looking for Work board.  This also puts administrative pressure on the team for fear of losing their board.  Possibly most important, is that it puts the staff in the position to guide and teach members better game design habits.

This of course requires heavy participation from the staff in working on projects, moderating the boards, approving teams, and so forth.  That seems entirely doable if less focus is put on extraneous things like the resource repository and the Weekly.  I'm not saying they're bad or useless, but they don't fix the fan game development problem.  I'm also not saying this forum should lose its personality.


I understand this is a lot stuff to process so questions, comments, criticisms, and suggestions are all welcome.  However, please keep it as constructive as possible.
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Jeod

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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2008, 03:40:30 am »
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Interesting take on the solutions. You're proposing a sort of schooling. Most of the newbies who come here found this place in a google search on sprites or something because they came up with a concept for a game they'd like to develop. They have no clue how to make it though.

So you're saying we form teams each with one or two senior ZFGC members and GM users and teach the "litluns" how to use it. Seems like a pretty good idea at first, right? Consider this:

Most if not all of the senior users are busy with college and more importantly, life. This points to relations improvement as the newcomers can't expect the teacher to be there every time they have a question. Also, the teachers may become impatient themselves when the students cannot grasp the concept correctly. This is where I would suggest team leaders work with eachother as well. Leader A chats with Leader B.

A: Hey, B, can you help me out? These guys are trying to make a day/night engine. I taught them how using Goodnight's tutorial but they can't get it down. Some of them make the time go too fast and some of them have engines that skip a day or a night. I've tried helping them but they can't understand what I'm saying.

B: Well, let me take a look. Maybe you're teaching from the wrong angle, y'know? My guys are moving along perfectly with the heart and rupee engine, and those aren't far off from a simple day/night engine.

A: Thanks, bro. Let me know how you did it so I can go by those terms if the issue keeps up!

B: No problem.
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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2008, 03:53:58 am »
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I called for something similar in the past.  It was just altering the focus of the development section to be based around team concepts.  As for a looking for work board, a while back Recruiting and Advertising were separated with that intention in mind by were later re-merged and relegated. 

One of the issues that arises from all of these type of solutions are idealism and overreaction.  While it is ideal to have more than one Community Project going, there hasn't been a successful one here at all and having a bunch of dead experiments would be even more disheartening.  The overreaction arises in the need to overcompensate with development.  We don't have to be totalitarian with development, we could just stand to make it more efficient and a little better.  Practicality ultimately works.

I don't think the staff should have too direct of a role in working on projects though.  That is not to say that I do not think there should be oversight, there should be, it's only fair.  Project and communally based things are better locally moderated as that gives those working in that board the ability to manipulate what is in their boards; not to mention it easily identifies those working on the project and setting it up in terms of permissions is easy.

In terms of staff teaching, the only real teaching that they can do is enabling and consequences, I don't really think they can be a guide beyond that.  They have other things to worry about and the dysfunction amongst themselves sometimes causes its own problems.

Oh, and since you mentioned it the Weekly is not a bad thing.  It might look bad a little because it's mostly all that is up there, but that is due to not being able to really get a team together.  In a sense, the Weekly is just a news item now, it really isn't its own thing per say.  I was going to use the current Community Project as a catalyst to move its focus more onto development issues and news though.

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Pyrazor

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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2008, 04:06:38 am »
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The advantage is there's several levels of prowess.  What an intermediate could be to a beginner, an advanced could be to an intermediate. 

There's no need, though it is welcomed, for the advanced collegiate users to help the very new as there are younger and intermediate level people who can.  Note I use advanced and intermediate loosely/relatively.
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Jeod

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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 04:08:02 am »
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*waits for further discussion to reply to*

Most of the stuff you guys are saying is what I've already agreed to; I don't know what else I can add. :P
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Xiphirx

wat
Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2008, 04:12:42 am »
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Actually, how about finishing ZFGCSDK?
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Jeod

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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2008, 04:13:35 am »
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Actually, how about finishing ZFGCSDK?

That's another thing we're discussing. You could volunteer to help out with it.
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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2008, 04:17:39 am »
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Actually, how about finishing ZFGCSDK?

Hence moderation delegation.
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Pyrazor

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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2008, 04:20:36 am »
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Actually, how about finishing ZFGCSDK?

If it wasn't clear, ZFGCSDK might help but it's not a magic bullet that, or any programming language/tool/utility, isn't going to make the forum !@#$% out complete fan games.  There are much bigger factors the majority of the forum user base is missing.

Also 4Sword, I guess teach wasn't the best word but you have the right idea.  Guidance is what the staff should be aiming to do more, there isn't very much of it that's been happening and what has hasn't been successful unfortunately.
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Jeod

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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2008, 04:22:47 am »
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Actually, how about finishing ZFGCSDK?

If it wasn't clear, ZFGCSDK might help but it's not a magic bullet that, or any programming language/tool/utility, isn't going to make the forum !@#$% out complete fan games.  There are much bigger factors the majority of the forum user base is missing.

Also 4Sword, I guess teach wasn't the best word but you have the right idea.  Guidance is what the staff should be aiming to do more, there isn't very much of it that's been happening and what has hasn't been successful unfortunately.

Do you mean more slaming than constructive criticism on the WIP end?
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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2008, 04:25:31 am »
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This forum needs less bitching and more action.

Pyra 4 Admin.
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Jeod

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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2008, 04:27:58 am »
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This forum needs less discussion and more action.

Fix'd :P
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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2008, 04:28:54 am »
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This forum needs less discussion and more action.

Fix'd :P

You need to discuss to take action. Without discussion there will be no plans to take action on.
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Jeod

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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2008, 04:29:51 am »
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This forum needs less discussion and more action.

Fix'd :P

You need to discuss to take action. Without discussion there will be no plans to take action on.

Agreed, but look at the CP. Too much discussion with little action=death.

Also, if Pyra were admin, we'd all be forced to use strange creepy avatars.
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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2008, 04:31:00 am »
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Agreed, but look at the CP. Too much discussion with little action=death.

That's because nobody takes action, that's not the discussions fault.

Also, if Pyra were admin, we'd all be forced to use strange creepy avatars.

If Pyra were admin... If Pyra were admin...
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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2008, 04:32:05 am »
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I agree Pyra. I think this course of action would greatly benefit the forums.

Jeod, to take action we need somebody to know what action to take, hence the purpose of this topic, a clear directive to admins on how to help things.

Everyone in general, please try to keep this on topic, thanks.
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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2008, 04:34:15 am »
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Personally and just because I think it would be helpful to the site, I think that every active project in the WIP section should be required to also have an accompanying WIP page on the site that is regularly updated.  It's not that much more work to do and it is in a lot of cases easier to sift through the information there as it is in a topic.

Because this is a fan gaming forum, another thing that should happen is that Windy's tool for ripping animations should be worked with and put to use in ripping animations for the community and organizing them for the site itself as well.  Most of the developers here program and are too lazy to get some of the resources, so this would help them out.

Tutorials though is something that I think could also be strengthened.  An idea I had in the past was to have lessons with Game Maker and C++ or whatever translation code so that people could learn C++ programming via knowing something in Game Maker and seeing its equivalent.  Tutorials do help people out though if they are something that is new or useful.

Most of what I said above applies to the individual project person, but essentially it can be extrapolated for an upstarting team.
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Jeod

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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2008, 04:38:15 am »
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Personally and just because I think it would be helpful to the site, I think that every active project in the WIP section should be required to also have an accompanying WIP page on the site that is regularly updated.  It's not that much more work to do and it is in a lot of cases easier to sift through the information there as it is in a topic.

If we do that then we'd need to regulate certain rules for having a page. Each WIP having its own page on the site would take a lot of memory, and many of the WIP games don't get updated often.

Because this is a fan gaming forum, another thing that should happen is that Windy's tool for ripping animations should be worked with and put to use in ripping animations for the community and organizing them for the site itself as well.  Most of the developers here program and are too lazy to get some of the resources, so this would help them out.

Come summer I'll have some more time on my hands to rip and organize things. I've been working on a LttP folder, and MC is slowly coming together.

Tutorials though is something that I think could also be strengthened.  An idea I had in the past was to have lessons with Game Maker and C++ or whatever translation code so that people could learn C++ programming via knowing something in Game Maker and seeing its equivalent.  Tutorials do help people out though if they are something that is new or useful.

I'm pointing to Infini's 'How to make a Zelda game' tutorials. Build off that, continue it, modify it to what you proposed.
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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2008, 04:45:24 am »
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A lot of projects have pages that are alright enough, they could just stand to be updated more.  Usually people who have taken the time to make a page have done more than enough to provide content for that page, however; I am speaking strictly of the WIP page on the site.  The people who have projects but not on the site should put them up there though.

That's far off.  In terms of animations, ripping completely single characters like enemies for one big total file would be enough; e.g. ripping the Keaton like I did and all of its actions.

I know about Infini's stuff, I was half the reason that board reemerged; Infini's not, Minalien's specifically.  It's good and all, it just doesn't give the transition that a newcomer might need.  Some things are just put into Infini's that eliminate the boilerplate too quickly without total explanation, so if you're not careful, you'll get lost.  It's a good start, but appealing to the majority, as that majority uses Game Maker, and getting them interested in something else if it seems possible through what they are comfortable with might produce more results.
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Pyrazor

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Re: How to better orient the forum towards fan g...
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2008, 04:48:03 am »
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The main problem I see with the tutorial is they give no concept towards how to plan to make a game, just how to program. 

The first lesson should always be towards making a team and forming a concept not how to set up XNA and so forth.
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